Is this one of the biggest myths in hockey circles?

Question

At least a few times per day I seem to see posters mention that Alexander Ovechkin has nobody to play with.....it usually comes attached to "unlike Crosby."

I even see many regulars who like to mention this little piece of false information.


A quick perusal of LITY's top 50 players tells me that CSS has Semin ranked 18th, Mike Green ranked 25th and Nik Backstrom ranked 36th. That on top of Ovechkin's #3 ranking and how do you figure he has nobody to play with?
People seem to think Washington is a one trick pony and Ovechkin carries the team......did they forget that Green was nominated for the Norris? That Semin has one of the best PPG averages over the last couple of years? That Backstrom is one of the best young players in the NHL and had 88 points in the reg. season and 15 points in the playoffs? That when Ovechkin is on the ice.......he is on with these players?

(BTW....the Pens have TWO who rank in the top 50...Malkin and Crosby.....who generally play together only on the PP).


So.....I ask.....in YOUR opinion, who has better linemates? Ovechkin? Malkin? Crosby?

Answer 1

The wonderful thing about being a hockey historian and working a 10 minute walk from the NHL's Toronto offices - information on short notice



From the NHL's Stats department, as submitted by the Washington Capitals



Niklas Backstrom played 1734 shifts this year

Alexander Ovechkin played 1694 shifts this year

Alexander Semin played 1272 shifts this year



Together, the threesome played 916 shifts together over the course of 58 different regular season games

While they were on the ice together, the Capitals scored 87 goals (41 PPGs), and had 39 scored against (6PPGs) for a +/- of +6



So, considering that Semin missed 20 games, of Semin's shifts, 75% were with BOTH Ovechkin and Backstrom.

Answer 2

I do agree that AO has legitimate talent to work with, then again Pittsburgh just won the Cup. Another relevant question to consider would be, at what point does being surrounded by talent stop inflating a star's statistics, and start causing the number 1 forward to share ice time, scoring, etc., as is the case among the Red Wings' forwards. It may not be Crosby/Malkin's linemates that inflate their stats, but rather the fact that Pittsburgh generally only runs 3 lines in tight situations, whereas the Red Wings distribute ice time in a more uniform manner amongst all 4 lines. I am not sure how much ice time Boudreau tends to give the Caps' 4th liners, but it may be a factor to consider when comparing Crosby and Ovechkin.



Bob, leave it to you to take offense whenever the words "red" and "wing" are used in the same sentence. I was simply citing an example, and I don't see how comparing the number of games that the Caps and Wings were eliminated in is relevant to this question.

I was trying to establish a relationship between shared ice time and statistics, as no Red Wing forward averaged 20 min or more on the ice through the regular season, whereas Ovechkin averaged 23 min per game, with Malkin and Crosby falling between the Red Wings' forwards and Ovechkin.

Either way, I believe Ovechkin has better linemates, while Malkin and Crosby have a better overall roster to work with. IMO, Ovechkin is the better pure goal scorer, whereas Malkin and Crosby are superior playmakers. I think the argument that Ovechkin has nobody to play with is completely retarded. If he traded places with Malkin or Crosby, I do think his goal total would be substantially lower. I think Malkin and Crosby share the responsibility of making the players around them better, whereas Ovechkin takes passes and shoots a hundred times per game. This doesn't mean I think Malkin and Crosby are better, but I do believe the S.O.B. line is more formidable than the Pens' first line.

Answer 3

Ovechkin, I think, but... Isn't it more like who HAD the better linemates? After all, we don't know for sure who's going to be on Crosby's and Malkin's lines this upcoming season, as far as forwards go. Guerin, Satan, Fedotenko, and Sykora are UFAs.



The other forwards they've played with? Kunitz, Dupuis, and Talbot. Not exactly the caliber of players that Backstrom and Green are.



People can't underrate the combo of Ovechkin and Backstrom, with how much chemistry they have. Crosby and Malkin both don't have any wingers that they have so much chemistry with. Well, before I might have said Malkin and Sykora are the closest thing, but look how that worked out at the end of the regular season and the playoffs.

Answer 4

This is probably the easiest choice ever...



Ovechkin!



Do people forget that... the Penguins spent most of their year, line juggling? Which MEANS... the Penguins had trouble finding linemates that would stick for BOTH Malkin and Crosby! Sure, some of this was due to injuries, but I remember...



Beginning of the year, they tried putting Staal as a Wing to Sid's line!



So here are top lines that I can remember throughout the year...



Staal-Crosby-Satan

Fedotenko-Crosby-Satan

Fedotenko-Crosby-Sykora

Cooke-Crosby-Malkin(For 2-3 games)

Cooke-Crosby-Kennedy





It's obvious, that the Penguins didn't have as great line-mates, espeically before the trading deadline.



And since people liked to use this excuse during the playoffs of "Why" the Penguins couldn't match-up to Detroit's depth... I'll post it here.



Number of Penguin Players that had 50 points or more : Two (Malkin and Crosby--Excluding Kunitz because he didn't score all of his points as a member of Pittsburgh)



No possible way the Pens match the depth of Washington's forwards, and that's coming from a Penguin fan here. We just happen to have 2, really great forwards.

Answer 5

Mario Lemieux's best season came with Paul Coffey as his defensemen



His next best seasons came with Hall of Fame linemates Jaromir Jagr and Ron Francis and Larry Murphy on defence





Gretzky only ever had Kurri (Messier and Anderson rarely played with Gretzky and Coffey.







Ovechkin has the better linemates by far.



Talbot does all he can to keep up with Malkin, while Crosby, Guerin and Kunitz are a nice fit - but Guerin and Kunitz are no where near the same level as Backstrom or Semin (or Nylander or Fedorov for that matter).



Washington's forward lines are as good as anybody's in the NHL. Aside from Green and to an extent Poti, the defense is a non-offensive unit. Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Fedorov, Nylander, Fleischmann and even Laich is coming on strong with a 50 pt season.



Pittsburgh's offensive lines aren't of that calibre (and this after over-rating Sykora and Satan), but Gonchar and Letang more than make up for it on the points. If Guerin was younger, and Kennedy and Kunitz had more skill.....then Pittsburgh would be a lock to repeat......but there is still some improvement needed in Pittsburgh's front 6.

Answer 6

Crosby/Malkin, hands down.



Ovechkin only played with them during PP.



True he may have played with Green, but Malkin and Crosby have Gonchar.



Ovechkin's linemates majority of the year were Kozlov and Federov/Clark.



Ovechkin would play with Backstrom and Semin just about the same amount as Malkin played with Crosby.



Personally, I would much rather have a Tyler Kennedy, Peter Sykora, Sidney Crosby, Bill Guerin, Chris Kunitz, Kris Letang, and Sergei Gonchar over them anyday.



Backstrom is overrated. Semin is solid. Green is great as well.



If anything, Backstrom gets his points from Green, Semin, and Ovechkin.

Answer 7

I think people just look at the fact that Malkin is easily better than anyone on the Caps besides Ovechkin (Semin at 18? That's surprising... he's a top 50 player absolutely, but top 20?) and they run with it. As if the thought process goes: "Crosby has a second star taking some of the burden off of him, Ovechkin doesn't. Therefore Ovechkin is all alone. Ovie is all alone, therefore he has nobody good on his team." and away they go.



(I don't care where he's ranked, I'm not comfortable considering Alexander Semin a star... well, not yet anyways.)

Answer 8

Linemates? Ovechkin rarely plays with they guys you mentioned, I see Crosby & Malkin play together more than Ovi & Semin.



That said, part of the issue is that no forward but Ovechkin in Washington has recently made a major name for themselves, all of the best players around him have been in the NHL the same number of games or less.

Semin is solid offensively, and Laich and Backstrom are not at all shabby, but I think I'd take J. Staal, over either one of them without regret.



The Pens have more offense in Crosby and Malkin than the Caps do in Ovechkin and Semin (although the latter two are collectively better goal scorers), and are certainly one of the two or three deepest teams at center in the NHL. The strength of the Caps is at left wing.

Answer 9

For me, it's because of draft position. Crosby was the #1 pick, and Malkin a #2 (Staal was a #2 overall pick as well), and Fleury was a #1 pick in 2003. They all had considerable press.



That begats reputation.



Semin, Backstrom, Green, etc...weren't hyped, and weren't top-2 picks.



That 2004 Draft for Washington (Ovechkin and Green in the first round)...not a bad way to rebuild.

Answer 10

Malkin had the most points this season, and they have Gonchar and Letang on defence. Staal, Crosby, Guerin and Kunitz. The players that you said for Washington are good, but there aren't as much decent players, Pittsburgh is LOADED! Washington isn't.

Answer 11

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Answer 12

The only place were pittsburgh is better than washington is at center and goalie. I know it might sound crazy but I think Ovechkin is actually hurting his team by his style of play, he takes all the shots and players like Backstrom and Semin are stuck out there just watching him at times.

Answer 13

I don't know who has the best linemates, sometimes the player makes his linemates better. All those HOFers in Edmonton also looked better playing with Gretzky.



I can tell you who had the worst linemates until the trade deadline though, Crosby.



Until the picked up Kunitz and Geurin he was stuck playing with Islander and Thrasher castoffs. ( No offense laying low) but Satan, Fedetenko Dupuis et al are not going to make you better.

Answer 14

Ovechkin

Answer 15

Like Pittsburgh, Washington has had bad teams in the past and benefited from high draft picks like the Pens.



I agree Bob.. "unlike Crosby" should be dropped!

Answer 16

To say that the Pens are "loaded" would be foolhardy. Letang is overrated by many Penguins fans, and Gonchar was injured for roughly 3/4 of the season. The Pens' hot streak and playoff rush coincided with Gonchar's return (which does not surprise me). Gonchar is the heart and soul of their defensive game and their transition game. Let's not forget that the Capitals are a much better faceoff team (Federov, Gordon, Steckel, Laich, etc).



Though the Pens won the Cup, it wasn't because they were "loaded" as some of you like to believe. They won the Cup because they had excellent star power (Crosby, Malkin, Gonchar, Fleury) along with some depth of opportunistic - not natural or highly proficient - scorers (Talbot and the like). They had opportunities, and they cashed in on them. It doesn't always work that way.



As for who has the better linemates: Ovechkin clearly has the better linemates when he's playing with one of Backstrom and/or Semin. But let's not kid ourselves: those linemates aren't padding Ovechkin's numbers at all. Ovechkin puts up excellent scoring numbers because he is the best one-on-one (offensively) player in the world at this stage.



And nobody better dare to think that the Penguins PP pads the numbers of Malkin. Some mindless Capitals fan had the audacity to say to me one day that the only reason Malkin won the Ross was because of his PP numbers! What that fan failed to realize was that Ovechkin was the NHL leader in PP points (and had a good 4 or 5-point margin over Malkin in that category). Sheesh. Fans need to respect other fans, the players, and the game. There's no need for anybody to be blinded by their dumb loyalty and spew lies about numbers.



Back on Ovechkin: his defense isn't great, but it's better than people outside of Washington generally give him credit for. What Ovechkin needs the most work on is letting plays develop, rather than being hell-bent to shoot at the net all the time. Ovechkin has a tendency to rush plays, and his give-and-go game isn't yet polished. Semin, on the other hand, is a give-and-go wizard! Semin is a far more polished player than Ovechkin is at this stage in their respective careers.



There's no doubt in my mind that Crosby and Ovechkin are amazing players, but fans need to stop putting those two on a pedestal and come to realize that there are other gifted hockey players in the league. With all due respect to Crosby and Ovechkin, Pavel Datsyuk and Evgeni Malkin are the best players in hockey right now. Some other players that deserve attention are Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Zach Parise, and Ilya Kovalchuk (who is a much better defensive player than Ovechkin, and just as dangerous a shooter and one-on-one player).



Datsyuk reminds me so much of Wayne Gretzky (without Gretzky's great shot, of course). Malkin reminds me of Federov in his prime (without the faceoff wins). Jeff Carter reminds me of Joey Mullen while Mike Richards makes me feel like I'm watching Ron Francis again. Parise reminds me of Paul Kariya in his best years, while Ovechkin reminds me of Mike Bossy. Last, but not least, Sidney Crosby reminds me so much of Gilbert Perreault. Kovalchuk is the closest thing I've ever seen to a young Mario Lemieux; unfortunately, he does not have Mario's vision or hockey IQ (which would probably make him a Brett Hull).



I never understood why fans have the tendency to compare players like Crosby and Ovechkin to Lemieux and Gretzky. With all due respect, Lemieux and Gretzky were in a league of their own. Not even Jagr himself was able to carry their jocks! Besides, not only is their level of excellence far below Lemieux and Gretzky, but their playing styles are also different from that of Lemieux and Gretzky!



In the meantime, enjoy the superstars while you're able to see them. Their careers go by so fast, in the blink of an eye.

Answer 17

Sid rarely plays with Geno anyway so the comparison isn't apt at all.



Alex scores a lot of goals but takes wayyyyy tooo many shots. His Defense is suspect and he takes really dumb penalties.



I imagine if you gave him Guerin and Kunitz as line mates he wouldn't do any better than he did.

Answer 18

I call it a wash....with totally different styles....both teams are full of talent. I love how in my last question everybody kept bringing up Ovechkin, yet I didn't even mention him.

Answer 19

Well,when arguing who is the greatest player ever,the first argument is "Hey,Gretzky had all those Hall of Famers as his linemates".



So I don't listen to the "If he played with so and so he'd be better" arguments.

Answer 20

ohhh you can't trust that... they have A.O. at # 3.



No but seriously... good point... but really they are all good... no matter what they are ranked at.